Infamous Quests

Public Forums => IQ Chat => Topic started by: Blackthorne on December 17, 2012, 02:10:14 PM

Title: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: Blackthorne on December 17, 2012, 02:10:14 PM
Taking on the task to create and produce a new Adventure Game is a monumental task - one that encompasses so many different areas, all of interest to me personally.  Creating the story, inventing characters, situations, motivations and crafting puzzles are some of them.  Helping to develop the art and music, and working with an incredibly talented to team to bring these visions to life is amazingly rewarding.  I was just listening to some new music that James Mulvale composed recently - and it's a joy to share in the creation of something with another artist.

So, of course, my mind wanders to not only our game, but adventure games in general.  I know what I enjoy in an adventure game, but I'm also making one for all of the people out there.  I really care what our fans an friends think about adventure games - so I pose several loaded questions to you - "What do you like about adventure games?  What do you look for in an adventure game?  What draws you to adventure games?"


Bt
Title: Re: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: Lambonius on December 17, 2012, 02:47:03 PM
I like the idea of immersing myself in a deep and well-developed world, poking around and putting together bits and pieces of the world's back-story as I explore.  I also like being able to unravel a game's narrative at my own pace, which I think is why I find myself much more attracted to the old Sierra-style games than newer "adventure games" by companies like Telltale, which don't contain any of those elements.  That sense of exploration and discovery is, to me, what adventure games are all about.  I don't necessarily care whether or not the puzzles are "hard," but I do appreciate when they are cleverly devised and executed.
Title: Re: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: chucklas on December 17, 2012, 02:55:50 PM
One thing that I love about adventure games as an adult is that I don't need to dedicate huge chunks of time at once playing.  I can sit and play for a few minutes (which can turn into hours at times) but when I need to walk away I don't feel rushed into trying to get to the next checkpoint or save location.   I can play at my lesiure without the dictating how long I need to play for.  I also love that I am not just shoved through a linear story but I can do things in different orders or at different times (this isn't true for the whole genre, but it should be). 
Title: Re: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: Intendant S on December 17, 2012, 03:18:19 PM
The number one thing that an adventure game needs to have to capture and keep my attention is a well-written and engaging story.  For without it it's not an adventure game.  Sure, there are some out there that have little-to-no story that I still like, but they don't compare to the greats.  Some humor also adds to the fun of playing even a serious game.
Title: Re: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: Lambonius on December 17, 2012, 05:06:13 PM
The number one thing that an adventure game needs to have to capture and keep my attention is a well-written and engaging story.  For without it it's not an adventure game.  Sure, there are some out there that have little-to-no story that I still like, but they don't compare to the greats.  Some humor also adds to the fun of playing even a serious game.

I agree that a great story vastly improves an adventure game, but would you really say that's the core of the experience?  We've been seeing more and more examples lately of games that are essentially story-only "interactive movies" like the recent Telltale games, and those don't capture at all the same feel as the classics from the early 90s.  Telltale has gone so far as to try to coin the term "cinematic adventure" to separate what they are doing from traditional adventure games.
Title: Re: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: Intendant S on December 17, 2012, 05:36:10 PM
Story is very important to me.  I guess that's why I'm fine with the way Telltale handles most of their games.  But, you're right.  It's not the only thing that makes up the core experience of true adventures (although it IS one big element).  Good puzzles (that make sense), exploration, and memorable characters are also all incredibly important.
Title: Re: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: Blackthorne on December 17, 2012, 05:42:21 PM
Yeah, I like good story - but I also love exploration!  I love being able to walk all about some place, and look around.  Like, I remember getting KQIV, and I spent so much time just walking around the Tamir screens - just to see what was there!


Bt
Title: Re: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: Monster on December 17, 2012, 11:35:08 PM
I think that the truly great Adventures have all of these things, and all are equally important in their own ways.  A great story, told by memorable characters, in a rich and expansive setting.  That's the core of it.  Puzzles can add a lot of depth when integrated well with these elements.  Combat and stats can also add an interesteing twist, but at that point we're getting into hybrid territory.

Features that add to the experience include voice acting (which can help to make even the most boring characters memorable), an appropriate score or soundtrack, and high quality art and animation.  These things increase the immersion considerably.

From what I've seen in the initial Demo, Quest for Infamy is loaded with these elements.

It's also nice when all of the characters have their own motives and desires.  I like when side-quests are offered, even if they are small.  I love selling creature bits to the Healer / Apothecary in Quest for Glory.  This kind of thing brings considerable depth to the setting.

Similarly, having multiple solutions to a puzzle or problem can be a lot of fun.  It's a good way to add a bit of realism to the game.

Along those same lines, think about items and inventory.  In a lot of Adventures that I've played, every item that can be picked up is useful exactly once in a specific area.  It can be nice to use the same item for multiple purposes.  Or it could be nice to have items that are completely useless in the game.  These could be rewards or red herrings, but you never actually use the items to solve any puzzles.

Anyways, just a few thoughts.
Title: Re: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: SarahLiz on December 19, 2012, 11:55:28 AM
Yeah, I like good story - but I also love exploration!  I love being able to walk all about some place, and look around.  Like, I remember getting KQIV, and I spent so much time just walking around the Tamir screens - just to see what was there!


Bt


That is exactly why I loved KQIV so much.  Just being able to walk around and explore at my own pace (well kinda...I guess there is a 24-hr time crunch before the king dies) is what I love about adventure games.  A good, interesting story is important, but I have to admit that what draws me in initially is the graphics, the artwork.  I am a graphics snob.  I like it a certain way, with a certain look (which is why I just can't get into most of today's games).  If a game is drawn a certain way that captures my attention, even if the story sucks I'll still probably want to play it.  Unfortunately for me, I've probably missed out on some good adventure games because I just couldn't get past the awful (in my eyes anyway) graphics.  My loss, for sure.

And don't even get me started about 3D games... :o  :P


Sarah
Title: Re: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: Intendant S on December 19, 2012, 12:05:51 PM
Maybe it's because I started out with Infocom text adventures, but graphics and sound are not as important as most other things.  Sure, a pretty setting or awesome soundtrack help a game, but it's more about the experience of exploring a world through story and characters to me.
Title: Re: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: Blackthorne on December 19, 2012, 12:32:38 PM
Oh yeah, absolutely - coming from Infocom games, you'd learn to be involved with the story for sure. 

You know what else about 3D that always bugged me - in a lot of 3D games, I always felt like I was just looking at the environment instead of exploring it.  I don't know why; it just feels that way to me.  Not always, but often.


Bt
Title: Re: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: Lambonius on December 19, 2012, 01:22:53 PM
Oh yeah, absolutely - coming from Infocom games, you'd learn to be involved with the story for sure. 

You know what else about 3D that always bugged me - in a lot of 3D games, I always felt like I was just looking at the environment instead of exploring it.  I don't know why; it just feels that way to me.  Not always, but often.


Bt

I think that's primarily because the transition to 3D tended to coincide with the transition to limited interactivity with the background objects.  Hotspot gaming.
Title: Re: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: rogerxy on December 19, 2012, 01:47:53 PM
For me, the story is the most important thing in an adventure game. A good story and good characters (kinda goes hand in hand)

Good puzzles are also important, and to define "good" is very hard I think. They should not be to easy and not to difficult.

Humor is often, but not always, a big plus in a game as well.

And yeah, no dead ends!
Title: Re: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: chucklas on December 19, 2012, 02:21:30 PM
And yeah, no dead ends!

I actually like having dead ends (so long as they aren't just oversights).  If you screw something up really badly, there should be a really bad consequence!  I also think that the player should be warned in some way before they screw up too.
Title: Re: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: Lambonius on December 19, 2012, 02:26:28 PM
And yeah, no dead ends!

I actually like having dead ends (so long as they aren't just oversights).  If you screw something up really badly, there should be a really bad consequence!  I also think that the player should be warned in some way before they screw up too.

I also like the idea of unwinnable scenarios, but I believe pretty firmly that the player needs to be notified that they have entered such a scenario.  It essentially turns the dead end into another form of death, except that your character doesn't actually die.  But functionally, the need to reload an old save is the same.  I'd have the game pop a message up saying something like "Uh oh, something you've done has created an unwinnable scenario.  You can keep playing if you'd like, but eventually you're going to have to reload and try another path.  Be more careful next time!"  Or something like that.  That way, the player still has to figure out what they did wrong, but won't be stuck wandering endlessly not realizing that there is no way to proceed.

Oh, and in order for it to be really effective, I'd have the message show up on a delay, maybe two or three minutes after the player did whatever it was that put them in that situation.  That way, it's not immediately obvious and requires the player to retrace their actions and think critically about what they have done.
Title: Re: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: Intendant S on December 19, 2012, 03:55:13 PM
I'll be honest.  I'm not a huge fan of dead ends.  Deaths are fine.  In fact, some of the Sierra and Infocom deaths are hilarious.  But, it's rather frustrating to get to a certain point in a game only to find out that you forgot to do something.  Leisure Suit Larry 2 is infamous in this regard.  If you don't get the Grotesque Gulp (still one of my favorite inventory items to date) in LA or the sewing kit and wig on the ship, for instance, you die at sea.  It would have been a bit better to get a message stating something like "You have the distinct feeling that you're forgetting something.  Are you sure to want to set sail?"
Title: Re: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: SarahLiz on December 19, 2012, 04:00:10 PM
And yeah, no dead ends!

I actually like having dead ends (so long as they aren't just oversights).  If you screw something up really badly, there should be a really bad consequence!  I also think that the player should be warned in some way before they screw up too.

I also like the idea of unwinnable scenarios, but I believe pretty firmly that the player needs to be notified that they have entered such a scenario.  It essentially turns the dead end into another form of death, except that your character doesn't actually die.  But functionally, the need to reload an old save is the same.  I'd have the game pop a message up saying something like "Uh oh, something you've done has created an unwinnable scenario.  You can keep playing if you'd like, but eventually you're going to have to reload and try another path.  Be more careful next time!"  Or something like that.  That way, the player still has to figure out what they did wrong, but won't be stuck wandering endlessly not realizing that there is no way to proceed.

Oh, and in order for it to be really effective, I'd have the message show up on a delay, maybe two or three minutes after the player did whatever it was that put them in that situation.  That way, it's not immediately obvious and requires the player to retrace their actions and think critically about what they have done.



I agree with that, I like to be warned that I'm about to do something stupid to end my life...I don't mind dying in a game though--in fact I kind of prefer it, in part because sometimes there can be humor in a character's demise. Sometimes after I've beaten a game I'll even go back through some of my saved games and see all the ways I can make my character die.  ;)  Besides the graphics issue that I mentioned earlier, a game that can make me bust out laughing is a HUGE bonus.  The narrator (for one) in QFI made me laugh several times, one of the reasons I can't get enough of this game...
Title: Re: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: Blackthorne on December 19, 2012, 04:58:51 PM
Yeah, dead ends from not getting an item from earlier in the game (that you cannot go back and obtain) are just poor game design.


Bt
Title: Re: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: rogerxy on December 19, 2012, 06:01:47 PM
Wow, I'm actually very surprised that there are people who like dead ends. I don't think there anything in an adventure game I hate more than that.

Getting killed is another thing, I have mixed feelings about that. Used to hate it but I'm leaning more towards being for it nowadays. And that is because of one single quote from Lori Cole, that things you do shall have consequences (just like in real life), to add excitement. There are of course good and not so good ways to kill off your character.

Punishing the player for wanting to explore and not to everything exactly as described in the walkthrough is a typical not so good way. If you screw up is one thing. Being able to get killed of practically everything in the whole game (like some Sierra games) is another (not so good) one
Title: Re: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: Blackthorne on December 19, 2012, 06:19:05 PM
Yeah - you have to be careful not to go overboard with the deaths, but I've always enjoyed them as part of the game experience.  It ups the stakes - from King's Quest I, where that music played, and I knew I had to run away from a wolf, or a wizard!  Having consequences matters, I feel.


Bt
Title: Re: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: rugged on December 19, 2012, 10:36:33 PM
For me exploration is the key. I love exploring areas and am most happy in an adventure when I have just unlocked a new portion of the game. Story is really important but I think too many games get carried away trying to make really complex storylines. I enjoy games where the story unfolds through exploration and progression. I get frustrated when you  have to read dozens of books in library or go through 28 conversation threads with each npc, to find out about the game world. I think kq series did this well, their were plenty of interesting back story things to be explored if people wanted to but you could finish the game following through a fairly basic story as well
Title: Re: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: rugged on December 19, 2012, 10:39:39 PM
I also really like the old school score system
Title: Re: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: Collector on December 20, 2012, 03:05:32 AM
As Josh Mandel has noted, Sierra had two kinds of dead ends. The unintentional ones, which were oversights, and the intended ones that were part of the game play. The later were usually avoidable with a little thought. In KQ5, eating the food in Serenia leads to a couple of dead ends later, but why would someone eat their inventory if there was not some indication that Graham needed to? Dead ends that resulted from not picking up an inventory item earlier in the game from an area that can no longer be accessed is unintentional and is simply bad design.
Title: Re: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: Lambonius on December 20, 2012, 01:02:11 PM
but why would someone eat their inventory if there was not some indication that Graham needed to?

Maybe because the game talks about Graham getting hungry as he enters the mountains, but gives you multiple options for things to eat, all of which will dead end your game unless you specifically eat the mutton.  ;)  That's really not a good example well-planned dead end.

Like I said, as long as the player is notified at some point after they've entered the dead end state, so they don't endlessly wander trying to find a nonexistent solution, dead ends are no big deal.  But that never happened in the old Sierra games.
Title: Re: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: rugged on December 20, 2012, 03:10:55 PM
I don't mind dead ends as long as they are planned. I agree though that their needs to be a way of letting the player know that they can no longer win. I would prefer it if this could be worked into the game in some manner rather then just an announcement.
Title: Re: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: Collector on December 21, 2012, 02:57:25 PM
As I had stated, eating the food in Serenia. I am just remembering some that have complained about that dead end when they had eaten the food in town. The point that you refer to is a point in the game that you do not have to restore too far back to undo the dead end. Of course, there are the people new to Sierra games that only keep one save game, saving their game over and over in the same slot. By the time they need to restore to an earlier point, they no longer have one that goes back to the point they need.
Title: Re: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: Blackthorne on December 21, 2012, 05:51:58 PM
Hahah, yeah, I learned my lesson on that.  I used to just save a game, and when I saved again, I'd just add a random number or letter to it... like "SavedGame1" of "GotCrackerdd" heh.  I had a lot of strangely named saved games.


Bt
Title: Re: Musing on Adventure Games
Post by: Intendant S on December 21, 2012, 06:45:58 PM
I remember filling floppies with saved games.  I had some...interesting names for saves.